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[00:00:00] **Michael:** Why don't architects sketch with clients anymore?

[00:00:02] **Maggie:** When we're just using paper and trace and we can erase with them and lay things on top and just say, it's not precious. [00:00:10] let's make this quick and dirty from the jump. that alone has made huge strides in how quickly we can get through those early [00:00:20] conceptual phases and how quickly we can get client feedback and sign off because it's not precious

[00:00:27] **Chris:** So today we're chatting with two firms in [00:00:30] Texas who work together, point B Design Group, and A one engineering about project collaboration and business strategy.

[00:00:39] **Chris:** so [00:00:40] how should architects and engineers work together? Joining us today is architect turns, CEO of monograph, Robert Yuen Six years ago, Robert started monograph [00:00:50] to make project management and business easier for architects and engineers, Over 12,000 architects and engineers use monograph to work smarter and [00:01:00] faster.

[00:01:00] **Chris:** So I'm gonna kick things off with how did you all start working together?

[00:01:04] **Maggie:** I was trying to remember that. We've been working together now for a handful of [00:01:10] years and we've done probably six or seven projects together so far. And we have another four in the bucket right now.

[00:01:17] **Maggie:** do you remember how we met?

[00:01:18] **Moises:** It was a small [00:01:20] residential project. I do remember. I think you reached out with some plans and honestly I think your office in our office just automatically clicked from day one and it was, it was, [00:01:30] that's why I can't even pinpoint when exactly we started work.

[00:01:32] **Moises:** 'cause I feel like I've always worked with you, but

[00:01:33] **Robert:** mm-hmm.

[00:01:34] **Moises:** I know it was a residential project and I remember at the time we had mm-hmm. no, but it's been some [00:01:40] time, it's been at least three to four years that we worked together.

[00:01:42] **Robert:** You know, you meet really great partners when it's just so natural.

[00:01:45] **Robert:** You don't even remember the exact event. It's just you almost are designed [00:01:50] to work together from the very beginning. Um, I'm curious, like you, you mentioned the first project probably was a residential project, but generally what kind of projects do you work on [00:02:00] today? Are they still the same?

[00:02:01] **Robert:** Like are they residential work? Are they commercial work? Um, I think the audience would love to know a little bit more.

[00:02:06] **Maggie:** It's a mixed bag. It's residential, it's commercial, it's sort of [00:02:10] everything in between. A one is our go-to just because we have that relationship and we can trust them with, guiding us in the right direction [00:02:20] regardless of what project type it is.

[00:02:21] **Maggie:** it's just, if you zoom out, it's just a puzzle that we need to solve together.

[00:02:25] **Moises:** I think To add to that, one of the key elements to my relationship with Maggie is [00:02:30] recognizing my role and responsibility to her. Right? I'm not there to essentially change her design or influence her design.

[00:02:38] **Moises:** You know, me as a structural [00:02:40] engineer, I'm a subject matter technical expert. My job, my sole job is just take care of the building and take care of the public. But I've recognized that like [00:02:50] Maggie wants to design this building to create this space. Like me as an engineer, I have to be empathetic to that, right?

[00:02:56] **Moises:** And I think that's where Maggie and I really were able to [00:03:00] just collaborate and it worked out because we automatically knew and respected our roles and responsibilities. And so, you know, I think that's what really makes our relationship work [00:03:10] out is just our ability to respect each other's, collaborative input and resistance at times because.

[00:03:16] **Moises:** You know, we're not always perfect and the conversations, you know, [00:03:20] they evolve. Um, but that's what makes our relationship great, is us being able to understand each other.

[00:03:26] **Maggie:** Mm-hmm. And Moises has really armed us with the [00:03:30] knowledge, um, of how to hedge against some of these structural challenges.

[00:03:36] **Maggie:** So he's come into our office and given [00:03:40] us rules of thumb. Um, he knows some of our kind of standard, um, design ideas that we bake in naturally. and how [00:03:50] to design those so that when it does get handed off to him, it's a more streamlined process. So we're not designing in the clouds, we're [00:04:00] designing in grounded, um, realities that he's prepared us for.

[00:04:04] **Maggie:** And then when it goes to him, there's a collaboration of what's the intention, what's [00:04:10] important, what can give, where are our tolerances? And then we work together on what's the right solution for the project, for the [00:04:20] design, the budget, the location. Um, we're working on one together right now that's on the river in Wimberley and it's in a flood zone.

[00:04:29] **Maggie:** [00:04:30] right now, especially, we're incredibly sensitive to that and how powerful water is. And so we've worked really closely [00:04:40] together with what is the right structural system to meet budget, but also safety.

[00:04:48] **Moises:** Yeah. So I, I would add this, is that [00:04:50] I, you know, Maggie brought up a fantastic point about this collaborative effort. As it relates to business, right? Because Maggie and I as principal engineers [00:05:00] and principal architects, we're ultimately responsible for everything that happens, good or bad. And so from a business perspective and also from a design [00:05:10] perspective, it's a lot easier if I communicate with her team, what should I expect from you so that I can streamline and get something back to you quicker, [00:05:20] right?

[00:05:20] **Moises:** And so it's kind of like that selfish motive where I want to, I wanna be able to keep my promise to Maggie so that Maggie, her promise to [00:05:30] her client. And so to be able to do that, we have to be able to exchange whatever we're exchanging, whether we're exchanging documents, we have to figure out a [00:05:40] way to do that.

[00:05:40] **Moises:** Now, what I've found has been really successful with Maggie is her being inviting to me, being able to tell her in her office. This is what you [00:05:50] should at least do on a building so that we can keep everything about as typical as possible. And then we just customize those special areas that we certainly need to customize.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] **Moises:** And having that confidence between my office and her office has really allowed us to not communicate as much knowing that we already know where we're going.

[00:06:08] **Chris:** Because you recognize that you have [00:06:10] multiple projects and as subject matter experts, you need to enable the architects to be thinking about how you're gonna receive things. You have the projects together, but then [00:06:20] you have this kind of meta project between firms.

[00:06:23] **Chris:** Mm-hmm. Uh, where you are investing in each other. What are the patterns by which you will structure out your [00:06:30] projects together? Because you're doing this other firm to firm relationship Moises, I'm curious, do you structure that across all your architects?

[00:06:39] **Chris:** For other engineers who [00:06:40] wanna do something like this and they wanna operationalize it, how would they go about it?

[00:06:44] **Moises:** Yeah, it's super hard, you know, for an engineer it's really difficult for, for, for me personally, lemme say this for me [00:06:50] personally, um, unfortunately, I, I'm not able to provide the same degree of attention to say every project in the [00:07:00] same manner, right?

[00:07:02] **Moises:** And, and so when we sit here and we try to standardize our operation, even though we have standard [00:07:10] processes that we treat all of our clients through. With architects, it's a little different because engineers, we have contractor as clients, we have regular [00:07:20] homeowners as well as clients. And, and so we have a variety of clients.

[00:07:23] **Moises:** But with architectural projects, we have to treat these a little differently because we are [00:07:30] working in someone's creative environment as opposed to, I'm just solving a contractor's problem by fixing a foundation or fixing a driveway. Hmm. So [00:07:40] there are two different types of mindsets, and I think for, as an engineer, what I'm finding is really helpful to my engineers is my ability to switch over into their [00:07:50] mindset so that I can work with them.

[00:07:52] **Moises:** Right. because architects already have a vision and they already have a direction of what they wanna create. Well, me as an engineer, I don't wanna go through a wrenching, I [00:08:00] gotta understand what that vision is so I can try to create that environment for her. So, um, to answer your question, every architect has a different degree of [00:08:10] creativity and involvement in their project, and so we kind of tailor it to how the architect wants, utilizes and emphasizes on their project.

[00:08:17] **Maggie:** We have our framework of our [00:08:20] phase, you know, pre-designed through ca, but how do we operate within that strategically so that we can be as effective and efficient as possible?

[00:08:29] **Maggie:** [00:08:30] And the linear methodology that is, I am going to design, then I'm going to document, and then I'm going to send backgrounds, and then I'm gonna get those, [00:08:40] get engineering back, and then we're gonna look at it, we're gonna coordinate it, and then we're gonna flag anything. To me, that linear process is so rigid [00:08:50] and it's so long that how can we, how can we kind of pick pieces apart to start to stack and to make that [00:09:00] process a little bit more efficient and effective?

[00:09:03] **Maggie:** Because at the end of the day, time is money and you wanna capitalize on client [00:09:10] energy as much as possible, and the longer that process runs. The more energy depleting they get, [00:09:20] and then it, it becomes more energy on your end to keep them excited and keep them going. And it's, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

[00:09:27] **Maggie:** So how can we [00:09:30] keep client energy, keep the project going? So with a lot of our engineers, we will try and front load that coordination effort [00:09:40] into like an SD or a DD phase. But when we work with Mo Essen crew, this is why he's our, our go-to is [00:09:50] we, we have established some rules to operate within between the two of us with him [00:10:00] educating us so that we're armed with that knowledge from the jump so we can be designing.

[00:10:06] **Maggie:** In the beginning with him in mind and what [00:10:10] we've learned from him with these rules of thumb and basic understanding of structure and, where we need the realities to live as far as [00:10:20] Dr. Runs structural. Um, where we can support, where we can cantilever, where we can push it a little bit further.

[00:10:28] **Maggie:** Um, [00:10:30] so then we're not waiting until we have backgrounds to send off. we're getting Moises and crew engaged when we have [00:10:40] a concept together that we've already developed with these rules of thumb in mind, we're working together [00:10:50] on what flags do you see? what could be a road bump?

[00:10:54] **Maggie:** how can we hedge against that? Then we continue working and then when we send backgrounds, it's a [00:11:00] much easier collaborative back and forth that we're not having to coordinate and redline and send back, and then they [00:11:10] do it, and then they send back, and then we coordinate and redline and send back.

[00:11:12] **Maggie:** And it's this really clunky long process. we're taking that and pulling it apart and making it happen on the [00:11:20] front end. Um, so that's how we operate and that's sort of across the board how we operate with, with clients, with [00:11:30] contractors, with engineers. Um, all of our billing is, is very transparent, so it's itemized on our invoices [00:11:40] as an expense that is passed along to client that's laid out in the contract.

[00:11:45] **Maggie:** So everything, there's a through line to everything.

[00:11:48] **Maggie:** So what do you find as [00:11:50] far as what's the difference in processing that a lot of people are asking?

[00:11:53] **Chris:** Even just on the billing side, some folks will take on fixed fees and, uh, they're not transparent at all about the [00:12:00] sub consultants rolling up to them.

[00:12:01] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:12:02] **Chris:** If you're doing it transparently, you wanna show that itemized out at that SD is this. Mm-hmm. Here's where we are on billing [00:12:10] progress so the more transparent you get, the more aligned you have to be. Yeah. That means you have to be aligned on some of the things that used to just be like, oh, you do it the way you do it.

[00:12:17] **Chris:** I do it the way I do it. When it becomes more [00:12:20] clear, your engineer has to be billing their SD phase to your SD phase so that you can fold it in and not confuse the client.

[00:12:26] **Maggie:** Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:12:27] **Moises:** that, I think one of the biggest challenges that I see on the [00:12:30] engineering side, right? Because I, I get hired by architects, right?

[00:12:33] **Moises:** And so what I'm seeing on the engineering side is it's easy to work with Maggie because she's a [00:12:40] lot more accommodating to how we communicate, right? what I find I get hired by a variety of architects, and I can tell you that you know, the truth of the matter is I don't [00:12:50] have a perfect relationship with all my architects, right?

[00:12:53] **Moises:** Because some, it's just harder to communicate with and be it, personality, be it its systems, be it its [00:13:00] software, be it, its pace of project, right? And so it's, you know, to say that, um. You know that every [00:13:10] engineer, and I'm gonna, advocate for my engineers to every engineer should be treated the same.

[00:13:14] **Moises:** I would say no. and I praise Maggie and any architect, they use a variety of engineers because, [00:13:20] you know, how you work with your engineer is extremely important. Can you effectively communicate with the person who's gonna put the bones inside of the building to hold it up? [00:13:30] Right? And so that communication and that understanding and that confidence, it only comes from the human aspect of being able to [00:13:40] look at someone and say, forgive me for not getting back to you, but I understand what you're doing.

[00:13:45] **Moises:** Right? and picking up from those points, uh, what I find is some architects are really very, [00:13:50] very, very unforgiving on almost anything. and that unforgiveness really crushes the creative structure when you're trying to incorporate your, your, [00:14:00] um. Consultant. So I would advocate to architects and anyone, even for engineers high and other engineers.

[00:14:07] **Moises:** Let's understand that as you're collaborating [00:14:10] with your architects and your engineers, let's be mindful that we are dealing with humans, right? And there's that big human element that we have to incorporate, that we do fall behind. Everybody falls behind [00:14:20] and so I think that these softwares, like monograph and some of these other applications at the end of the day is we're certainly trying to live a more, less stressful life, but trying to complete this [00:14:30] project.

[00:14:30] **Moises:** I think when I was asking Maggie how she came up with the name of her firm, she said that it was always the objective to get your project from point A to point B. [00:14:40] And that's brilliant because literally it's that simple is get the project moving and get it completed.

[00:14:45] **Maggie:** it's like, what's the point of all this?

[00:14:46] **Maggie:** To build it. Let's get there. Yeah. Let's get there smartly [00:14:50] and not burn resources and time and energy and you know, at the end of the day, we have cool jobs. We get to design stuff that we get to see [00:15:00] in real life. We get to see people interact with it. And we're not saving lives but, we have a cool job.

[00:15:07] **Maggie:** Let's, let's just do it. [00:15:10] Get like Maggie, we'll overthink it. Just get it done. Which project are you most proud of, Maggie? Hmm, that's a great question. the project that we had on the home tour last [00:15:20] year, probably one of my most proud projects because it was a great example and practice of [00:15:30] collaboration with client and client trusting and us trusting client and team.

[00:15:36] **Maggie:** and it was one of my earlier ones. I think the other [00:15:40] one that I'm really proud of is the one that we're working on together, Moes and Wimberley, the River Project, because it carries so much weight for the [00:15:50] family, for the town. when it's built, it will be an example of, resilience.

[00:15:57] **Maggie:** so I'd say those two.

[00:15:59] **Moises:** I would agree. You know, [00:16:00] it's projects, like that Wimberley project that has a real human connection. It's not just a structure. You know, I think what people forget is buildings live also, right? And [00:16:10] they give back to us a lot more than we give them.

[00:16:13] **Moises:** And for this Wimberly project, we're literally suspending the building in hopes that when the flood comes [00:16:20] again, we're literally just gonna be over the floods. Right? And so. it's a collaboration between drainage engineers and architects and structural [00:16:30] engineers and contractors on board and the property owners on board and these discussions,

[00:16:34] **Moises:** they're emotional. It's not just looking at a beam or concrete. I mean, it's become an [00:16:40] emotional construction meeting or design meeting that we have because it's that much at stake, and that's what makes these projects super cool.

[00:16:48] **Robert:** Mm-hmm.

[00:16:49] **Moises:** You look at that [00:16:50] column is, I know why that column is there, because the homeowner didn't want the column over here.

[00:16:54] **Moises:** You know? Yeah. And there's always a story behind it. I think that's what, that's what we chuckle in our heads, right?

[00:16:59] **Maggie:** [00:17:00] Yeah.

[00:17:00] **Robert:** I love hearing both of you go at it. it's like we were at. Bar and we're just having a really, really good time. Maggie, I think the entire point of it is to get from point A to [00:17:10] point B.

[00:17:10] **Robert:** Um, but what I'm hearing a lot in this dialogue is actually how you get to point B really matters. Um, the communication, the relationship things, [00:17:20] regardless if you're using a tool or if it's ai this or AI that. Like, there's some things that are still core to how we exist as human beings and how we occupy [00:17:30] space that really, really matters and how we work with each other really, really matters.

[00:17:34] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. Um, so build a really good relationship. Start early, um, get [00:17:40] everyone on board. Be transparent in how we all work. Like these things matter as we go from point A to point B. Um, which I didn't know that that's how you [00:17:50] got the name and now I'm so excited.

[00:17:52] **Maggie:** it's overly simplified, and I didn't want a name that.

[00:17:56] **Maggie:** Had my name on the door because it's bigger than me. it's my [00:18:00] team, our consultants, who we work with. how do we all together get this done? Because a building does not exist with me alone. It is [00:18:10] dependent on contractor, client, engineer, all of these pieces coming together to make it happen.

[00:18:19] **Robert:** Um, [00:18:20] most of the people who are watching this now don't know, but we were talking about meese a little bit earlier before the webinars started. Uh, so it reminds me that less is [00:18:30] more. and you're also reminding me that like sometimes the things that are the most simplest things. Are actually the hardest things to accomplish.

[00:18:36] **Robert:** And that's usually true in most things in life. Uh, if you [00:18:40] want to create something that's really, really simple, really, really easy, those are the hardest projects to pull off. It's incredibly difficult to pull off. Easy and simple. [00:18:50] Um, yeah,

[00:18:51] **Moises:** you know, I would

[00:18:51] **Maggie:** add behind, sorry, go ahead, MOIs.

[00:18:54] **Moises:** I was gonna mention that, you know, in the military, I had his great commander who once told me that, if you wanna make [00:19:00] anything more efficient, don't add a step.

[00:19:03] **Moises:** Get rid of a step.

[00:19:04] **Robert:** Mm.

[00:19:05] **Moises:** But it was so hard to get rid of steps. So anytime I'd look at my processes, anytime I have an [00:19:10] issue on a project and I do that evaluation of the project, why did this project go wrong? Or why did I lose this client? Right? I always look at what steps could I have taken to [00:19:20] prevented that?

[00:19:20] **Moises:** maybe one of my steps was a part of the reason, right? And so I look at that efficiency, and to Maggie's point about point B, sometimes I'll look at. How do we get rid of a step to become, [00:19:30] maybe I add a step out of my own anxieties, out of my own precautions, when really I should look at it as, is that step necessary and maybe I'm being [00:19:40] redundant in some areas.

[00:19:41] **Moises:** Right. And I think that's what, trying to look at our processes from that perspective, I think makes us more efficient and hence why we advocate to Maggie and her [00:19:50] office as to let's make sure that there's a collaborative effort on how we're gonna understand each other so that we can, not only communicate through our applications and our plans, but just understand [00:20:00] each other.

[00:20:00] **Moises:** And that's how we get the project from point A to point

[00:20:01] **Robert:** BI, I noticed that there's usually a correlation where if there's a lot of steps, there's usually very [00:20:10] low trust. And usually you have a lot of trust and you have way less steps. 'cause like it's the, the steps are usually there because there's inherently not enough trust.

[00:20:19] **Robert:** So like you [00:20:20] gotta put in checkpoints, uh, to ensure things are doing well. But like, if you have trust there, then you actually need less checkpoints. Um, so [00:20:30] less steps are required.

[00:20:31] **Moises:** really good point.

[00:20:32] **Robert:** It usually, I think about that a lot here at my graph. as we're growing, it's like, okay, how many steps do we have?

[00:20:37] **Robert:** How many different checkpoints do we have? And the more I [00:20:40] try to reduce things means the more trust I have to build. And I'm really self-aware when I find it difficult to remove steps, that usually means one, I don't [00:20:50] start with the process. I start with like, okay, there must be a gap in trust somewhere.

[00:20:54] **Robert:** And like, we should fix that first. Um, 'cause then the process becomes easy, way [00:21:00] easier. Building trust and establishing trust is actually extraordinarily hard.

[00:21:04] **Moises:** and I think that even goes for our clients, right? So when you really look at how, when you get selected [00:21:10] for any project, it's really a blessing, right?

[00:21:12] **Moises:** Because the competition is out there, right? I mean there's, I know Maggie has an entire state of Texas to choose engineers [00:21:20] from, right? And so be able to be chosen that one project regardless of the contract amount, just be able to be chosen. That's because trust you with the project, right?

[00:21:29] **Moises:** And [00:21:30] that's point A. Like I at least trust you. Like you at least didn't give it back to me.

[00:21:33] **Maggie:** And I think that trust that comes from the relationship too, where we're investing in each other [00:21:40] to build that trust. and I really, going back to that whole relational humanistic element of this. I think that at the end of the day, the [00:21:50] product is the building.

[00:21:51] **Maggie:** But like you said, that building gives so much back to us that if the process is fraught with, [00:22:00] fighting and infighting or no trust or a long process or overbilling or over budget, then this building [00:22:10] is growing with this really negative energy in it. And I know it sounds woowoo, but I'll lean into the woowoo that if the [00:22:20] process is crummy, that building is gonna carry that through its lifecycle and that client is going to move through that building [00:22:30] with that undercurrent of negative energy, where if we are building that trust from the jump and that is.

[00:22:38] **Maggie:** Not just with the client, but with [00:22:40] our team. And then we're showing the client this, that we've built together, then they're on board to trust everybody's in this nest [00:22:50] of communication and transparency. And that's the foundation of what we're building this process and project from. Then the outcome, it [00:23:00] might look the exact same, but it will have a completely different life and feeling and energy at the end.

[00:23:07] **Robert:** Um, I love that we're spending so much [00:23:10] time on energy, the emotions, uh, and the people. I would love to see if we can get a little bit deeper. Like how do we think about time, [00:23:20] uh, relative to these topics? How much time, how do we invest that time?

[00:23:25] **Robert:** You know, we we're on a zoom now and like technology have made managing some [00:23:30] of those cadence easier. Uh, I'm curious, like, how else do you think about managing time, generally speaking for your business relative back to like [00:23:40] a project? How do you think about when it starts, the cadences that you have to hold to ensure that trust continues to be there?

[00:23:48] **Robert:** Um, we'd love to know how you [00:23:50] think about that.

[00:23:51] **Maggie:** Yeah, I mean, we have sort of a framework of how long things should take as sort of our baseline to work from, but I really [00:24:00] challenged myself and my team to be attuned to client. Because client is gonna tell us what they're gonna need, but they're not gonna tell us with words.

[00:24:08] **Maggie:** They're not gonna say, [00:24:10] I need this cadence, I need this type of communication. They're gonna tell us with their actions, with their body language, with how they're communicating to us. [00:24:20] So we need to be very open and aware and create capacity for ourselves to see that so that we can react and capitalize on [00:24:30] that.

[00:24:30] **Maggie:** And we're operating within our framework, but we might push things forward or pull things out a little bit based on what our [00:24:40] client is showing us so that we can capitalize on what they're telling us they need. And then that right sizes the cadence for the project, but then it also builds that [00:24:50] trust of the client that they're feeling really heard and seen.

[00:24:53] **Moises:** Yeah, I, you know, I would add that, If someone can just solve time management, everything will just work out. [00:25:00] Everything works, right? Because that means I have time for everything and I have time to go home to my family, right? and so boy, it's hard. I don't know [00:25:10] how architects do it, but I find it really challenging.

[00:25:13] **Moises:** where if, you know, I wanna interact as much as I can with my clients, whether that's the owner or contractor, [00:25:20] architect, right? But I need a lot of desktop. I need to be able to sit here in perfect quietness and just work, right? And I think in time management, [00:25:30] we need that block of time to just work.

[00:25:33] **Moises:** And so I know in my office, I've tried to set up a rule where don't put me on a call at 10 o'clock in the morning. you're [00:25:40] killing my day. I either do it first thing in the morning or later in the afternoon. So I've really tried to incorporate some kind of rules where I wanna make myself accessible to my clients, [00:25:50] but I have to recognize where I can't make myself too accessible 'cause I'll never be able to get any work done.

[00:25:55] **Moises:** So I think that's, as a professional, whether run an architectural firm or a law firm or an engineering firm, you [00:26:00] still wanna make yourself available for your business, but then you still gotta get your business done.

[00:26:03] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. So, I

[00:26:04] **Moises:** know in my own practice, I've really tried to regulate myself and, and that at times puts [00:26:10] friction in communication because I don't make myself as available.

[00:26:13] **Moises:** And that's the part, me as a professional, I just gotta continue to figure out how to manage that. And I think that having these discussions [00:26:20] certainly makes me aware of it and makes me really rethink am I, can I do a better job of making myself more accessible? So I, I know Maggie has experienced me sometimes.[00:26:30]

[00:26:30] **Moises:** Not being accessible. So I like to really talk about that. Like, what can I do, man? I gotta make myself more accessible to you. How about that?

[00:26:36] **Maggie:** I mean, you have always, it goes back [00:26:40] to that human piece, right? Like we all make mistakes. We're all just trying to do the best we can. And I think it's just giving each other some grace and understanding and [00:26:50] space where we're not gonna yell fire, but if I yell, fire, you respond.

[00:26:57] **Robert:** Yes.

[00:26:58] **Maggie:** And [00:27:00] so it's that. It's going back to that mutual respect, mutual trust of I trust that you're doing everything that you said you're gonna [00:27:10] do, but if something pops up and I need it now or need a response, you are available.

[00:27:16] **Moises:** I agree. Thank you. Yeah. But that comes with the [00:27:20] team behind us, right?

[00:27:21] **Moises:** Because I think what we miss here is that I have 15 people behind me, as you saw, and I apologize for being rude. Somebody walked in to bring me lunch because sometimes I [00:27:30] just cannot eat unless my team feeds me, right? Because we try to make ourselves fully available to it. So I think we forget that there is a whole group of people behind us that make [00:27:40] us available and really make our business shine.

[00:27:43] **Moises:** I think we forget to thank them a lot of the times. and so if a team is watching, thank you for really helping us.

[00:27:49] **Maggie:** [00:27:50] Amen.

[00:27:50] **Moises:** that your effort is really important.

[00:27:51] **Maggie:** Yes. I could not agree more because that's exactly what gives us the capacity and space to do things like this [00:28:00] or to do bigger business initiatives or work on the business that we're not beholden to drawing or drafting because

[00:28:08] **Maggie:** We have that whole team [00:28:10] behind us. And I'm pointing here because they are literally behind me in that studio. and there's that built in trust there too, where I trust that [00:28:20] they are going to design with our values and integrity in mind of what we deliver. when I go and sell a client and I say, this [00:28:30] is how we operate, this is what we deliver.

[00:28:32] **Maggie:** I know that they will deliver on that. I don't have to micromanage, I don't have to question. And so then that gives me [00:28:40] space and time. Um, so yeah, it's trust, it's relationships across the board within your own team, with your consultants, with your [00:28:50] client, and if all of that falls into place, the end product that is architecture will be beautiful.

[00:28:55] **Maggie:**

[00:28:55] **Robert:** agree.

[00:28:56] **Chris:** You've got your team, you've got your tools. Let's hear [00:29:00] more about what's inside of both those groups. How have you thought about the structure of your team, the folks who are there, the specialists, um, and then what [00:29:10] tools are you using? Let's also include maybe design tools too, but how are you thinking about all this management, all this work to do

[00:29:16] **Maggie:** maggie, you

[00:29:16] **Moises:** wanna go at it?

[00:29:17] **Maggie:** Sure. so our tools, we use [00:29:20] monograph, and monograph has been a great tool to track time, budgets, invoicing, big picture [00:29:30] finances, so that I can look at the overall health of the business. When do I need to find work? When do I need to pull back?

[00:29:39] **Maggie:** When do I need to [00:29:40] hire somebody? And it's helping me identify those things because yes, we're architects and yes, we're practicing that sculpture, [00:29:50] and design. But it's a business. the product is the architecture, but if we don't have the business health, then we're not gonna be able to architect.[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] **Maggie:** So really that is one tool that I use every day to feed and water the organism. That is the business [00:30:10] my team uses, ArchiCAD, which is Revit BIM software. So we can transfer models back and forth with Mo Zes and his [00:30:20] crew. to check things and look at how things are coming together. we use a lot of paper and trace, and I know it's old school, but [00:30:30] again, it builds client trust, especially when you use it in the beginning because there's this mindset that happens that if [00:30:40] something's already in the computer, if it's rendered, if it's too done or precious, they have a harder time giving feedback or [00:30:50] changing or tweaking because there's, oh, it's gonna take a long time, or it's gonna be expensive.

[00:30:58] **Maggie:** But when we're just using [00:31:00] paper and trace and we can erase with them and lay things on top and just say, it's not precious. let's make this quick and dirty from the jump. that alone, when we [00:31:10] shifted to that earlier on, has made huge strides in how quickly we can get through those early [00:31:20] conceptual phases and how quickly we can get client feedback and sign off because it's not precious we can just push and pull and move around [00:31:30] and then inputting it into the 3D software.

[00:31:34] **Maggie:** we have been using pro ai, which is an AI rendering tool, [00:31:40] and that's been really helpful to get super quick conceptual visuals of a [00:31:50] model that. Looks pretty stark in the software, but can come to life really quickly and [00:32:00] cheaply without burning resources so that clients can start to visualize even more.

[00:32:05] **Maggie:** So our tools are these layers [00:32:10] of development so that we're not going too far too fast, but that we're keeping a really good handle on it. And then we have internal policies and [00:32:20] procedures within this structure and framework to identify trajectory of any issues or problems [00:32:30] before they're a problem or an issue.

[00:32:32] **Maggie:** So for us, it's a combination of software. And internal [00:32:40] tools and policies and procedures to balance the two, to keep this framework in place and to keep running really effectively and efficiently [00:32:50] so that we're not burning time and resources and we're keeping that client trust and client energy and momentum.

[00:32:55] **Moises:** Yeah, I would add that I know on my side trying to run [00:33:00] a production company, let's get plans out, right? Regardless of what those plans are. One of the biggest challenges that I've had, it hasn't necessarily been technology because I've [00:33:10] started incorporating 3D laser scanners.

[00:33:11] **Moises:** I'm a small firm and I've had a 3D laser scanner for almost eight, nine years. we run Tela for steel designs. we run Revit. So we've [00:33:20] incorporated upfront. 3D modeling, not because we're just trying to be cool, but because I wanna be able to communicate with Maggie. I know what she's using and I know that if I'm gonna work on an [00:33:30] existing building, yes everyone can go out there, retake measures.

[00:33:33] **Moises:** But if I made the investment into a 3D laser scanner, why not use it? I'm not gonna charge Maggie extra for it [00:33:40] because it's gonna reduce the amount of errors that we make later on. A big part of the work that I do is forensic work, so, um, I'm, in fact, I'm in between a deposition today, [00:33:50] where I'm testifying.

[00:33:50] **Moises:** But, you know, engineers, a lot of times we get asked to repair stuff, so we get exposed to what happens on the bad end, right? when construction goes wrong. And so a [00:34:00] lot of times we wanna incorporate those into our designs. So one of the things that I've done, because I'm so careful about the designs that I'm having to push out, how do I [00:34:10] push out a design?

[00:34:11] **Moises:** But being mindful of trying to get this design out efficiently without wasting a bunch of resources. So to Maggie's point, I've created [00:34:20] policies and procedures, templates, and standards that if we can at least get this, we've at least started the building off, right? And it's that effective [00:34:30] communication with your team and managing expectations also with your team.

[00:34:33] **Moises:** And so what I've learned is that instead of hiring a degree, I hire a mindset. And so if I can get [00:34:40] the right employee with the right mindset, I can do almost anything, because if I can just teach you how to hit that button. Okay, good. We're on step one, [00:34:50] right? And so we really try to cultivate our team to be, I don't wanna say decision makers, but certainly make them a part of [00:35:00] the actual process regardless whether they're a young intern, fresh outta college.

[00:35:04] **Moises:** Or a degreed engineer, we still give them technically the same degree of [00:35:10] responsibilities just under different supervisions. But we really make an investment to try to make sure that our folks are up to date with all the software that regardless of who I throw a piece of paper at them, [00:35:20] they're able to develop that into something that follows the company template.

[00:35:24] **Moises:** And I think us as leaders, that's the part that makes it difficult for us, that we need to make sure we communicate [00:35:30] that expectation that Maggie is holding me to. And how do I develop that, bring that out of my team, I think is our biggest challenge that we have as owners and proprietors.

[00:35:38] **Robert:** Uh, so exciting to [00:35:40] hear both of you share your, uh, we'll call it like tool stack, uh, for you to run your business, and then all the policies and procedures that you have to write to make sure that [00:35:50] things run, um, efficiently and on time. I'm curious, like as you start to think about. Procedures and policies and how to work with each [00:36:00] other.

[00:36:00] **Robert:** Um, we've heard a lot of great things in how both of you work together. Um, I'm curious if you'd be willing to share things where you can use [00:36:10] a little bit more improvement. Um, we're all work in progress. Nothing is ever gonna be perfect. And I'm curious, as the world changes, like our policies and procedures should change, [00:36:20] what gaps have you seen recently that like, oh, like we should, you know, we should fix that.

[00:36:25] **Robert:** Um, in terms of like how we, we engage with each other as architects and [00:36:30] engineers?

[00:36:30] **Maggie:** I mean, I think that for myself, it's that the capacity and the balance to make sure that I am leading by [00:36:40] example of work-life balance so that I'm not expecting my team to not have that work-life balance.

[00:36:47] **Maggie:** Ensuring that I'm protecting [00:36:50] time throughout the day and not overscheduling, so that I'm available to them and ze. for me, a policy that I've put in place and that I keep breaking myself [00:37:00] is how many meetings I have per day. and it's holding myself accountable. because at the end of the day, I have to lead by example, and if I'm not doing it, [00:37:10] how can I hold anybody else accountable?

[00:37:12] **Maggie:** so it kind of starts and stops with me. And, following that and making sure that I'm pacing my [00:37:20] own week, my own month, my own year, well and sustainably. so that I have time for them. I have time for projects and clients and [00:37:30] business development and all the things. I would say, you know, the constant project of policy is the [00:37:40] process is how do we develop a process that is tried and true in a well-oiled machine, but allows for flexibility [00:37:50] because every project is unique and different and requires a different level of design or documentation or cadence.

[00:37:58] **Maggie:** how do we develop a [00:38:00] process that is both rigid and flexible at the same time? Um, and you know, to date, I mean, the [00:38:10] relationship between us and a one has been very organic and sort of these unspoken rules [00:38:20] and relationship. But I don't know, maybe we write something, maybe we say, you know, when we engage with each other, this is what it looks like.

[00:38:28] **Moises:** Yeah. You know, I think you brought [00:38:30] up two good points. One, accountability, right? And I think like you, I hold myself accountable for everything. And sometimes I have to recognize that if my staff makes a mistake, it's not [00:38:40] necessarily their fault. It's my fault. Right? And so I have to look at really, am I holding myself accountable, my management for my policies and procedures, whether I develop a policies and procedure that [00:38:50] maybe is no longer needed.

[00:38:51] **Moises:** But I think, you know, certainly trying to hold myself accountable to myself and to you, I think is where the responsibility is. [00:39:00] I can't just let that project go and, and even if I'm falling behind, it's recognizing that I need to get involved. Like you mentioned, when it's. [00:39:10] When it's hot, I need you right now and I'm gonna drop whatever I'm doing.

[00:39:13] **Moises:** Right? I don't have that choice because I wanna make sure that I maintain that relationship and respect with you. So I think, Robert, [00:39:20] going back to, at the very beginning, how do you establish a relationship? I think that what I've learned and gathered through this discussion is it's people, right?

[00:39:28] **Moises:** It's at the end of the [00:39:30] day, the one thing they never teach us in engineering school is how to have a relationship with someone, right? and we're using these mediums. I [00:39:40] think this is what's really impressive, is that when I started my company in 2000 and, and, and 11, you know, I had a printer in my car and I was driving around [00:39:50] trying to figure out where I was gonna get a client, and now I'm on Zoom, right?

[00:39:53] **Moises:** And so the technology alone has really added the benefit of us being [00:40:00] able to be responsible, be connected, make ourselves available. At the same time, through all that availability we set to be responsible, you know what, I need to step back a little bit and just sit there and do my [00:40:10] work. Right? And so I think it's impressive in seeing how technology has really facilitated these relationships because I don't think I would be able to have a relationship with Maggie and [00:40:20] Austin if I was still working out of a printer in the back of my call, right?

[00:40:23] **Robert:** Just think about how far we've gone as a human species. Like Chris, you're in dc I'm in San Francisco Bay [00:40:30] area, and we're having an engaging conversation today. That would've never happened, if technology didn't involve the way it did. and Maggie, like what you said earlier really resonates with [00:40:40] me.

[00:40:40] **Robert:** And actually I think it's incredibly hard for any business owner. is incredibly hard 'cause it is our job to set an example and lead by example. I personally also have a take where [00:40:50] I don't ever expect anyone work as hard as me. at the end of the day, it is my business. we're not the same.

[00:40:55] **Robert:** yes, I'm gonna lead by example, but we're also not the same. accountability is a [00:41:00] spectrum and ours as business owners are much harder. I also have grown in recent years and I have a deep desire for vocabulary and I don't like the word balance [00:41:10] only because people tend to define balance as 50 50.

[00:41:13] **Robert:**

[00:41:13] **Maggie:** Yeah.

[00:41:14] **Robert:** I don't, yeah, my life goal isn't to spend half of my week with my family and half my [00:41:20] week with my work. My goal is to actually just be happy. And sometimes that means 90% work, 10% family, and [00:41:30] sometimes that's 90% family and 10% work. Mm-hmm. Um, but the goal is not to strive for a 50 50.

[00:41:36] **Robert:** the goal is to strive for harmony and happiness. Um, yeah, that's [00:41:40] just gonna look very different on a week over week, month over month, Sometimes year over year, depending on what kind of year you're having. Um, but it at [00:41:50] least helps me ground myself in terms of how I have to look at my own time management and also set clarity with my teams.

[00:41:58] **Robert:** Like, hey, I'm working a lot and there's [00:42:00] no expectations for you to do some of the hours that I do. 'cause the accountability is different. Um. I'm also really, really happy at what I do. And that's okay. And that's the goal.

[00:42:09] **Maggie:** That's [00:42:10] really well said. It's, yeah, it's not 50 50.

[00:42:13] **Maggie:** It's how to be present and grounded in what you're doing in that moment. And if you [00:42:20] said, oh, I have to cut out at four because it's 50 50, then you might not be fully present when you're at home at the table, at dinner. And, vice [00:42:30] versa, you might undercut yourself because you didn't do the family thing, so then you're thinking about that at work.

[00:42:36] **Maggie:** So how can you

[00:42:38] **Maggie:** put things on your [00:42:40] calendar pace things be available to create that capacity for awareness and presence in whatever you're doing in that [00:42:50] moment?

[00:42:50] **Robert:** Um,

[00:42:51] **Moises:** I think we go down to, if I have to answer like Moses, how would you know where you need to put your time for that day? Like, if I show up and sometimes [00:43:00] I do show up where I see my calendars, like, man, that calendar just doesn't make sense with what my world feels like right now.

[00:43:07] **Moises:** Right? Yes. It happens. [00:43:10] Exactly. like my calendar's. Like my world isn't there right now. Like, why am I doing that? Like, I have all these other things that I personally feel that I need and that's the accountability part that I, [00:43:20] you know, I don't think that there is a trick or a rule that I can think of to help me make that decision except for this who needs me more and, will I [00:43:30] make an impact on that project to get it to the next step?

[00:43:33] **Moises:** Right. And I think that just being able to prioritize. At the end of the day, who can I have the most positive [00:43:40] impact in one day? if I know Maggie needs something right now, and it might be something so small, but that small thing might make the world of a difference for Maggie

[00:43:48] **Moises:** On her project. [00:43:50] Right. I have to make that investment. Right. I think that recognizing that we, as principals, as engineers and just responsible for projects, there is that element of no one can teach you to [00:44:00] just be responsible with how you wanna develop that relationship with that person or that project, or that owner, whatever that is.

[00:44:07] **Robert:** Mm-hmm.

[00:44:08] **Moises:** And I think that's at the end of the day [00:44:10] when I'm gathering from this and it's kinda like an enlightenment man, I just need to make sure that I always make sure I'm available at the right time to make sure that, you know, if anything does come up, [00:44:20] you know, we want to preserve that, that building and that relationship.

[00:44:23] **Maggie:** Yeah. And being attuned to that. and maybe that's how you build a framework of process that's, you know, this is [00:44:30] our process. But then within that, if you and your team, and you and your team as an extension of you, because you're showing how to be [00:44:40] attuned, how to see these little micro clues of how to make these decisions strategically, that maybe that's how you [00:44:50] develop a process that is a strict process with flexibility.

[00:44:54] **Moises:** Maggie, do you have interactions with your team on the, when you make a decision, do you talk [00:45:00] with your team on how you made that decision or what parameters you consider to do? Yes. That's good.

[00:45:04] **Maggie:** Yeah. Yes, I think context and why is [00:45:10] so powerful that it gives. For whatever it is, whether it's a design decision or a business decision.

[00:45:18] **Maggie:** You know, I will always [00:45:20] try and be as transparent as what is appropriate, because if I'm just telling somebody, I need you to do this thing, they have no idea why. [00:45:30] They don't have any clues as to what's important.

[00:45:33] **Robert:** Yeah.

[00:45:34] **Maggie:** But if they know why a decision was made, then there's more ownership and [00:45:40] agency and buy-in.

[00:45:41] **Moises:** Yeah. I see that the confidence goes up because now they know something about the world more. the last thing that I've tried to really emphasize on my staff and somebody brought it [00:45:50] up earlier, is drawing on paper. I don't know how often I tell my staff,

[00:45:56] **Moises:** Draw me a section or show me on paper [00:46:00] what that looks like. And I think that when you go through that exercise of having to think through your drawing, you either realize that you don't know something, you realize that you actually [00:46:10] know the answer. And what I've learned is that simple tool of just put it on paper and let's talk through it.

[00:46:17] **Moises:** Right? and as they're sitting there drawing it, you [00:46:20] almost stop talking and they almost draw the answer themselves because you just facilitated that little thought process and gave 'em that confidence that you know enough to now step [00:46:30] back and just let them put that thought on paper. I think that's, mm-hmm.

[00:46:32] **Moises:** That's what I'm gathering from. That's cool.

[00:46:34] **Maggie:** Yeah, absolutely.

[00:46:36] **Robert:** I always think of like all the W's that are very common, and it always [00:46:40] starts with the why. Like as leaders, I think if we don't articulate the why, we actually leave our team, um. Spiraling a bit. Uh, 'cause that's, it's usually the context is really, really [00:46:50] important.

[00:46:50] **Robert:** The why, uh, the who, the when, the what, the how. Um, and I think as an organization grows, some [00:47:00] of those Ws you might be able to not do anymore, but the why is probably the only one that never goes away. Um, the team needs to know why [00:47:10] they do what they gotta do, um, with purpose. If not like, then everyone doesn't know why.

[00:47:16] **Robert:** And that's, that's actually extraordinarily inefficient [00:47:20] and unaligned. I agree. We're a little bit close on time, Chris, I, I'm gonna break a little bit of the rule and go a little bit over if that's okay. Um, [00:47:30] and I'm just gonna go straight to like the last question, which is usually one of my favorites for everyone here.

[00:47:35] **Robert:** Um, which is, what's the one way you used to work? That you'll never go [00:47:40] back to, um, like, like the world's changing so fast. Like, what I would love for you to like, name something that you just, you're not gonna go back to that

[00:47:49] **Moises:** Excel [00:47:50] spreadsheets. Yeah.

[00:47:51] **Moises:** Oh my God. I would spend, I dunno how many billable hours trying to get a function to work. I, you know, I love Excel, [00:48:00] but for what we do as engineers, I have like a gazillion Excel spreadsheets that I built when I was a young engineer that to this day they still work.

[00:48:09] **Moises:** [00:48:10] Uh, but, you know, it's finding these softwares that are just, you know, I needed something that's built and already ready to talk to me. And I think because of my time, [00:48:20] uh, it's excel, I just don't want to have to sit there and just build anything anymore.

[00:48:24] **Maggie:** Yeah. I think mine, I have two. The first is when we switched to [00:48:30] early phase pencil and trace instead of computer fully drawn plan and massing never go, I will never go back there [00:48:40] because it made such a huge impact in the trust and cadence and decision making.

[00:48:45] **Maggie:** The other thing would be adjusting how we [00:48:50] operate internally as far as meetings and time management and respecting each other's time within the office. Where does it need to be a [00:49:00] meeting? If it does, what's it about so that everybody can come prepared. How much time should it take? You schedule that time and you don't take anymore.

[00:49:08] **Maggie:** And one of my [00:49:10] favorite things that I just say on repeat around here is be bright, be brief, be gone.

[00:49:15] **Moises:** I'm gonna write that down.

[00:49:16] **Maggie:** Be bright, be brief, be gone.

[00:49:19] **Chris:** [00:49:20] Well in the spirit of that, thank you so much Maggie and MOIs. This is super fun. Thank you Robert. Once again, another great episode, with two folks who are running their [00:49:30] own ship and a lot of the time they're collaborating and their staff is collaborating.

[00:49:34] **Maggie:** Thanks for having us.