[00:00:00] **Michael:** Creating the perfect restaurant vibe requires controlling air temperature, velocity, day lighting, and acoustic quality all at once, but most architect-engineer teams can't [00:00:10] coordinate at this level. This leads to spaces that look beautiful in photos but feel uncomfortable to actually occupy. Welcome to Architecture and Engineering Business Strategies, [00:00:20] hosted by Monograph.

[00:00:21] **Chris:** Today we're chatting with two firms in Austin who work together. About hospitality project collaboration and business strategy.

[00:00:28] **Chris:** We're here today because [00:00:30] architects don't design buildings alone, but collaboration isn't always easy. So how should architects and MEP engineers work together? Joining us today is architect turned, CEO of [00:00:40] monograph, Robert Yuen. Six years ago, Robert started monograph to make project management and business easier for architects and engineers, and now over 12,000 architects and [00:00:50] engineers use monograph to work smarter and faster.

[00:00:52] **Chris:** Michael Hsu, FAIA is here from Michael Hsu Office of Architecture. They're an award-winning, fully integrated architecture and interior [00:01:00] design practice based in Austin, Texas. They focus on hospitality driven projects that range from mixed use developments to commercial interiors and residences. Aptus [00:01:10] Engineering is a performance driven MEP engineering firm based in Austin, Texas as well.

[00:01:14] **Chris:** They're known for a service oriented culture and a collaborative approach. It's led by [00:01:20] co-founders Eric Zisman and Sujay. Reg Me and the firm provides MEP design services across commercial healthcare, educational, and mixed use sectors. I'm [00:01:30] gonna kick it off with the first question. How'd y'all start working together?

[00:01:33] **Michael Hsu:** Eric, cj, what was our first project?

[00:01:35] **Sujay:** First one we should go back to 10 years ago, P. Terry's, we did a lot of projects with [00:01:40] y'all.

[00:01:40] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. Yeah. We've certainly learned a lot with that and that, that is a sort of drive through, and seated, QSR, so Quick Service restaurant in Austin, Texas, [00:01:50] burgers, hamburgers,

[00:01:50] **Eric:** not only known for flavor, but also for a pretty unique look and feel as you approach your drive-through. I would say it's not your out of the box, uh, fast food [00:02:00] restaurant.

[00:02:00] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. And I know one of the challenges with the, those projects are, very tight space. Where we have to put a lot of equipment in, and then how do we still make it look and [00:02:10] feel good as opposed to feeling like we're in the middle of a commercial kitchen.

[00:02:14] **Michael Hsu:** So that, that's always, I know the goal that we work with you guys on.

[00:02:17] **Robert:** How long ago was that again? That was 10 years [00:02:20] ago. Is that right? Yeah. Oh my God. 10 years ago. And

[00:02:22] **Eric:** I'd say that's a client we've worked together, on new concepts until, just last year I'd say we wrapped up the last one. [00:02:30] So it's evolved and, and kept going, speaks to the level, level of dedication and quality.

[00:02:35] **Robert:** Incredible. Um, I'm curious, like what kind of, what kind of projects in terms of like [00:02:40] different typologies other than restaurants and fast food, uh, do you, do you three continue to collaborate on? Are there other types?

[00:02:47] **Michael Hsu:** Oh, I think we're, we're, we're a [00:02:50] very project type diverse office. So we've worked on everything from small office building, normal thing like that to large high-end [00:03:00] resort communities with all the sort of complex amenities as you can imagine.

[00:03:04] **Michael Hsu:** Normal restaurants, of all sizes and price points. And then we do a little bit of medical with you [00:03:10] guys with Westlake Dermatology, which is a very sort of design board, a dermatology provider in most of the Texas cities now.

[00:03:17] **Robert:** I'm curious, how do you determine what projects to [00:03:20] take? Or maybe more importantly, what kind of projects you don't take? I'm curious if there's a framework, especially when you do such a wide range.

[00:03:26] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah, I, I'll answer it first and then I'll hand on. To the guys here, we [00:03:30] have sort of an informal, flow chart.

[00:03:32] **Michael Hsu:** And the first few items are gonna be, can we succeed at this project? It may be hard, but is there, can we succeed? [00:03:40] Usually that is like, is the timeframe something we can hit? Is it, is it real? Is the budget real? Does this client know enough to do it for us to sort of help? But then the big [00:03:50] question is, what are the design opportunities on this project?

[00:03:52] **Michael Hsu:** It may be a project that checks all the boxes, all the financial time, schedule boxes, but it's not a design. Sort [00:04:00] of, uh, doesn't have a lot of design interest or ability for innovation or curiosity for us to explore, then, you know, that'll be something we'll turn a job down for

[00:04:08] **Sujay:** For us, uh, we, we try to [00:04:10] bring different flavors to the, uh, you know, the group. We do projects of small size, large size, more, you know, commercials, more, you know, residential. We also sort of like do things [00:04:20] that something that we haven't done, challenge ourselves sometimes and figure out a way to do it.

[00:04:24] **Sujay:** And it's brings the, that the best out of you when you are exposed to something that you may not necessarily [00:04:30] know, but you are ready to learn and, you know, get into the deeper end, ends have a successful project. And that's what we do and keeps us on our toe s as well.

[00:04:37] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. I love that point, Sujay [00:04:40] because I think, uh, we're both in that space where we're willing to take risks and dive into new project types that we don't know about because we have enough confidence in our process to, to think that, [00:04:50] you know, we can be successful at it. And I know if we don't have the internal parts, then we, you know, we can't ever say yes to jobs that may make us a little uncomfortable at first.

[00:04:58] **Michael Hsu:** So, very new project types, [00:05:00] working in a new region, working with new construction typologies or structures and, uh, it's good to have team members. It's one of our criteria who are willing to sort of go [00:05:10] along in the journey with us. Because as you know, when we have teams where we're trying to push the envelope on something, but the rest of the team is like, Nope, don't want to do that.

[00:05:17] **Michael Hsu:** Can't do that. We don't get anywhere. We get nowhere. Right. [00:05:20] It's like leads to frustration and at least to a horrible client experience. Clients generally don't like the complexity of what it takes to put a project together For different players, there are [00:05:30] different needs and concerns, their tolerance for risk.

[00:05:32] **Michael Hsu:** So when we have teams that are sort of lined up at enough of a level, yeah, let us explore that, and then, you know, you guys come back to us with real [00:05:40] solutions that, that, that's incredibly important to us.

[00:05:42] **Chris:** Projects are long in architecture. How do you apply a structure to projects? What do you see [00:05:50] as patterns in their structure? Do you follow closely the standard phases? Do you think about phasing a bit differently?

[00:05:57] **Chris:** And then also as an engineering firm, [00:06:00] having a smaller slice of the scope, but having that project still in the office, how do you structure understanding with the project, even when there's maybe a lot of scope happening [00:06:10] outside of your world?

[00:06:10] **Eric:** The question brings an interesting perspective for the way Aptus approaches the design process. We, a as you mentioned, that the architect on the [00:06:20] traditional park project will start with a client from initial concept and carry through to final construction Today.

[00:06:26] **Eric:** It opens, MEP comes into the design [00:06:30] process. Typically far, quite a ways through the development of how it's gonna look, feel, and serve the community. And Aptus really makes a [00:06:40] concerted effort to get involved as early as we possibly can in the conceptualization space. Programming and understanding of what the client is looking to [00:06:50] achieve how they want, their end users to interact and get involved early.

[00:06:54] **Eric:** Even though we are a small slice of the pie, we, we like to feel like we bring that functionality [00:07:00] and comfort to the vision that starts well before we're ever even involved.

[00:07:04] **Michael Hsu:** We,

[00:07:04] **Michael Hsu:** we have the normal phases. Uh, we add a couple of different phases, which feels like [00:07:10] a, a little bit more of like what a modern design firm is. So we have branding also in our office, and that came out of every project had to build in unique qualities and [00:07:20] differentiators.

[00:07:20] **Michael Hsu:** Sometimes architects aren't the best at that. And then you could call that the identity part, the storytelling part, the why do I exist part, and a lot of [00:07:30] times we get that from the client and then we mirror it, we reiterate it to 'em, and then. It gives us guidelines for how we go about the design process.

[00:07:37] **Michael Hsu:** Otherwise we're staring at a blank sheet of paper [00:07:40] sometimes and don't really know why we're doing something. So it's like always trying to answer the why question first. So that's on the front end. And because we do interiors and procurement and then we [00:07:50] fabricate quite a bit of products. So lighting, FFF and e built-in furniture, lots of millwork.

[00:07:56] **Michael Hsu:** The branding people will do integrated signage, way [00:08:00] finding, all of those things. Those people are inserted in certain places. So I think about our process is more like a stage, like actors come on stage and actors walk off [00:08:10] stage at different times. Like we, we want everyone to sort of like, instead of at the end of the play, they take a bow.

[00:08:15] **Michael Hsu:** It's like everyone shows up at the front end, so everyone knows who is doing [00:08:20] what. You know, we, we talk about, okay, this is a. A project where the interiors are doing a lot of work. So like, you know, they're, they're kind of front and center. Sometimes projects are not architectural. [00:08:30] Um, other times it's very much about at and e especially if it's a quick paced sort of thing.

[00:08:34] **Michael Hsu:** We don't have time to build something. So we, we try to pick and choose the team that works for [00:08:40] that project in an efficient way. And that's how we build our contracts as well.

[00:08:43] **Robert:** I'm so curious, like, and it's just fascinating to hear you tell the story of you describing your, your [00:08:50] internal processes, like, like conducting a play. And there's these, these actors that come on and come off as different timing. Now, now I'm just really curious and like, how do you manage [00:09:00] your, how do you structure your time?

[00:09:01] **Robert:** Uh, assuming like not every actor is gonna spend the same amount of time, everyone's gonna have to. Be time sequentially or not sequentially in parallel. Do you have a framework in [00:09:10] how you kind of, like, keep things organized or is it kind of project by project, uh, when you think about sequencing and, and structuring your time?

[00:09:18] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah, we, we have a big [00:09:20] Monday morning meeting, which is sort of resource allocation looking at new work. It is probably the toughest few hours of any week, especially because as a design studio [00:09:30] we, we resist too much organization, because we're always afraid that it may hinder creativity or, or sort of having a, diverse voices, young [00:09:40] voices, fresh thinking on projects.

[00:09:42] **Michael Hsu:** But I also know, and this is what we're struggling with now, is that. That structure comes with a lot of complexities, like how do you manage that? And, um, [00:09:50] that is what we're working on now, because the inefficiencies and it also leads to sort of inefficiencies and staff development and career path building for all our talent [00:10:00] because they're hopping around on stuff, working for different principles or partners on different project types.

[00:10:04] **Michael Hsu:** It's a great learning experience, but it comes inherently with a barrier entry every time that sort of happens with [00:10:10] any one person in the office.

[00:10:11] **Robert:** It sounds like you don't have a solution yet, but you're working on it. Yeah.

[00:10:14] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. No solution, quite yet. We, we know, yeah. Monograph definitely. And, and you know, if we [00:10:20] looked at other things and we cobbled ourselves along with just, spreadsheets and the normal stuff and, um, we're out of that a little bit at least.

[00:10:27] **Michael Hsu:** But yeah, it's, it's not, it's been a challenge.

[00:10:29] **Robert:** [00:10:30] Eric and Sujay, like, I was just curious, do you, you you have the same Monday resourcing meeting, uh, that Michael has, and is it, is it just as painful?

[00:10:37] **Sujay:** Well, I guess, you know, it, it started, uh, [00:10:40] in the pandemic era as, uh, everybody started working from home. Uh, we needed to figure out way too, sort of like a smaller team.

[00:10:46] **Sujay:** So what we ended up doing is having a, we would have some [00:10:50] multiple, weekly meetings, but we, we have a quick short, 15, 20 minute, daily meetings in the morning. You, it's nine o'clock. Everybody comes in either online or remote, or in person here. And so talk [00:11:00] about what transpired yesterday, and what's gonna have to be done today on, you know, the few days.

[00:11:03] **Sujay:** The, the, one of the challenges we had back then is working from home, everybody was in siloed, in corners, and [00:11:10] no, nobody really knew exactly what was going on with anybody else. So we needed to have a platform where somebody can come and say, Hey, we did this, this, I need help on that type that, you know, we need to [00:11:20] have deadlines here and there, need some support.

[00:11:22] **Sujay:** So that sort of interaction, the, the, the element was we found it essential and, very, very, um, needed. And so we did [00:11:30] that. And aside from that, we have, you know, project manager, uh, resource allocation meeting on Fridays so that we have, you know, resource allocated and you, and, and sort of like broadcast that out on [00:11:40] Monday.

[00:11:40] **Sujay:** So yeah, these tools as, as, uh, Michael said we're continually, refining it works, but then there is room for improvements. Uh, and so we'll continue to add, you know, more [00:11:50] features and dimensions and just kind of like these, the elements, uh, you know, which, and see if something works better than others.

[00:11:56] **Chris:** How about in your shared timelines between projects? Do you have a way [00:12:00] of thinking about key moments during the phases? Early is important. I think that's a really key idea. That might be a bit counterintuitive to some [00:12:10] firms working out there with consultants, but I think there'd be some interest in hearing.

[00:12:14] **Chris:** More detail about how you structured your shared time together as collaborators.

[00:12:18] **Eric:** Collaboration is [00:12:20] always on, on a scale that that equates to the size timeline of the project. There are go, go, go small projects where we have to trust that, each other [00:12:30] is running the same direction and has the same end goal and we hit the finish line at the same time. We much prefer a project that has a, a longer cadence and [00:12:40] has the opportunity to check in, in, in multiple ways.

[00:12:43] **Eric:** As a design team that, us in the interiors and architecture are blending our elements together [00:12:50] to have, a finished product that feels thought out and seamless though is being, applied from different teams and different perspectives. But also one that we come together and present [00:13:00] that to the client and the owner in a way that shows you chose the right team that can work together.

[00:13:05] **Eric:** So I feel like our, our preference is always to have the internal design [00:13:10] touch and then you turn around as a team together, organize and present that as a complete product to the client, to the outside world, not every architecture, MEP [00:13:20] dynamic approaches it that way.

[00:13:21] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. One of the things I appreciate about the consultants we work with, Aptus is, um, you guys get our, sort of what we're trying to do. So, we're [00:13:30] primarily about customer experience. Like what's the guest experience? And we know that the five senses are. What is creating that for people?

[00:13:38] **Michael Hsu:** What is the air temperature, what's the [00:13:40] velocity of the air temperature? How do we control day lighting without making it go away? How do we, dim, how do we dim circuits? And, you know, we've learned hard lessons with you. Like you, [00:13:50] it's complex. The technology's changing, and we need a lot of control to get the, essentially the vibe, that we want at the end of the day.

[00:13:57] **Michael Hsu:** Because what we're looking for is to have a [00:14:00] direct and individualized emotional experience with the people who occupy the spaces like that is meaningful. That is what people remember. It's what you take away. It's like we can [00:14:10] rationalize all the stuff, why it's, it's a great project, but at the end of the day, people aren't feeling it and they're excited about being there.

[00:14:16] **Michael Hsu:** Uh, and, and they, they talk about it, you know, it's not gonna be as [00:14:20] successful as it can be. So it requires all of those little, parts and pieces and a lot of that stuff sometimes is. What you might think of as interior design parts like solar shading [00:14:30] devices, acoustic quality of any space. You know, I know we work with you guys even to tune acoustic quality.

[00:14:35] **Michael Hsu:** We want the space to be louder. We want the space to be softer. We want intimacy here. We want [00:14:40] activation there. And then how is it that we design something and then all the different components of a project and all the different players are all working to the same thing. You know, that [00:14:50] that's what we like, you know, to where you guys will come in and be like, Hey, are you sure you really want this air device, in your ceiling it's ugly, or something like that.

[00:14:57] **Michael Hsu:** You know, that's what we like, you know, when our teams are, [00:15:00] you guys are part of the qa qc process for the experience. End experience of a user.

[00:15:04] **Robert:** It's so cool to hear, both of you speak about collaboration and then stories about [00:15:10] how those collaborations manifest through the experiences that you, that you and the entire design team are aspiring to build. It's, it's totally incredible. I [00:15:20] imagine a lot of that comfort comes from a decade of working together.

[00:15:24] **Robert:** And I'm, I'm curious, like now, a decade in and a decade looking forward, how do you [00:15:30] think architects and engineers should continue to work together? Like what's, what will have to change? What have you learned and what do you wish that you probably would've learned sooner? Would love, [00:15:40] love to ask that to, to both Eric Sunjay and, and Michael.

[00:15:43] **Eric:** I see it putting the tools that we have available, design software rendering, software [00:15:50] is amazing. You can paint the most realistic vision, uh, of what we're after and put it in front of the team. And I feel like for the longest time, [00:16:00] that exploratory effort always fell in the lap of the architect, interior designer, directly with a client.

[00:16:06] **Eric:** And then from an MVP perspective, you know, we're lucky [00:16:10] enough to be brought on the team. We, it, it's now our role to try to fit our pieces within the framework that the skeleton that's out there. And we're really trying to [00:16:20] back that up and, and get involved early and be a part of that process. And like Michael said, you know, we're happy to show you what the diffusers are gonna look like.

[00:16:28] **Eric:** Or if you're going [00:16:30] for an industrial feel and you wanna see every conduit, you wanna use color or paint, or you wanna expose it, that's your look. Hey, we can, we can take that concept and run and being able to [00:16:40] utilize some of the modeling software and the ability to get together more, more often and within a model together that, you know, is, was not available [00:16:50] as tools previously, really opens up design opportunities.

[00:16:53] **Sujay:** Yeah. It's sort of like a fundamental change in how you design in a way. Uh, almost things happen in a real [00:17:00] time. You know what used to be. There's a architectural model walk to certain point, and then it's transferred to the other consultants. They work on it. And then there's that, static back and [00:17:10] forth, between different milestones.

[00:17:12] **Sujay:** That's not the case anymore. You know, most of the projects are hosted online, the cloud, so it's almost a real time design changes on one [00:17:20] end is visible and, you know, affects the other discipline. So we're having to adapt at the same time. It's sort of like brought, the, the, different perspective of seeing the entirety [00:17:30] of the project in a 3D model perhaps.

[00:17:31] **Sujay:** You know, and sometimes it's difficult to visualize how, you know, architectural perspective of that project is what elements of them, 2D [00:17:40] representation is not always good. And so that has helped us a lot to be able to see those things and in a design concurrently, in a very collaborative manner.

[00:17:49] **Sujay:** So [00:17:50] the end result, we all get to the end point just about the same time. It's not one, you know, leading the other, you know, there are some changes that MAP makes that affects archite [00:18:00] and vice versa. So it's, it's a different, um, you know, design process.

[00:18:03] **Michael Hsu:** I think that's absolutely right. I, I think that is, uh, a very more up-to-date approach is like, there's a lot more back and forth. ' [00:18:10] cause I do remember it wasn't that long ago, we'd do SD and then we'd hand off to you to do SD or DD MEP work, and then it would just be really trading [00:18:20] drawings. There was not a whole lot of sitting around together and how do we accomplish this?

[00:18:23] **Michael Hsu:** Or how do we accomplish that? And the software has been tremendous for that. It has,

[00:18:27] **Chris:** What's a project that tested your [00:18:30] collaboration and how'd you get to the other side?

[00:18:32] **Sujay:** It's always, I guess the, the fun project that you've never done in the past don't necessarily have the same reference. Those are the, the good ones to know, things like, okay, a [00:18:40] new dimension, a brewery comes in, some of the things that we haven't been encountered in the past, let's say, how do you design this?

[00:18:46] **Sujay:** Those elements, that's where, you know, the, the synergy between [00:18:50] the design teams are super essence and critical to understand, um, you know, what that is all about and how do we facilitate to design around it so that the end goal and [00:19:00] product is not, um, you know, almost every project has some little bit of those, you know, these challenging elements.

[00:19:05] **Sujay:** Some have more so nonetheless, but almost everyone has. We try to sort of like coordinate that, figure [00:19:10] out, you know, and, and you know, adjust those things as we go.

[00:19:12] **Eric:** One that we had, it's under construction.

[00:19:14] **Eric:** I know they had a meeting on site end of last week is the headliners club. Ah, [00:19:20] that's located on the top two floors of a high-rise building downtown. It's a private club catering, kitchen bar event [00:19:30] space. The top of a high rise that I couldn't tell you when it was originally built, but it predates myself probably.

[00:19:37] **Eric:** And they want a full [00:19:40] refresh from a materials look and feel and equipment. And so now we're tasked with the challenge of getting. Brand new HVAC equipment, kitchen [00:19:50] appliances, all the materials to re-skin it up, 40 something floors through an operational downtown building and renovate the top two floors is quite a [00:20:00] challenge for, for every consultant involved.

[00:20:02] **Michael Hsu:** I think that's a perfect example. Thanks for taking that job, by the way. There's, there's few harder jobs than that. Cause they wanna stay operational [00:20:10] through, the process as well. And it's, it's an old building and it was never meant to really, have a modern sort of f and b concept up, up there that has a [00:20:20] life of its own, but it's become such an important part of Austin.

[00:20:22] **Michael Hsu:** It's, um, for those who don't know what headlines Club was started by journalists. That essentially kind of camped out in [00:20:30] Austin, to sort of gather news from the legislature. And, um, so it was a, it was, it was like the journalist room and then they started giving awards. It's where they would hang out and it became an [00:20:40] institution in Texas.

[00:20:41] **Michael Hsu:** It was sort of a little watering hole for the political in, in inte Hencia and then politicos were hanging out there. And then it became a, a place where a [00:20:50] lot of, urban professionals, uh, spend time. And so it's not only is it a tough project, it's one that everyone knows in Austin.

[00:20:57] **Robert:** How many people are you trying to put on the roof? [00:21:00] I'm curious.

[00:21:00] **Michael Hsu:** The capacity for the whole club is hundreds. Um, I bet if they sat everyone at one time, it's boy. 400

[00:21:07] **Sujay:** plus. Yeah. They have, they have [00:21:10] two floors. So, you know, the top floors would easily do three to 400.

[00:21:14] **Robert:** Oh my God. On an old building that needs to stay operational, that is a staple of [00:21:20] the city.

[00:21:20] **Robert:** I, I, I almost wish for this project, uh, in this discussion we had the structure engineer too. 'cause now I have, I have a lot of questions on how do you retrofit a building of that old, of that size [00:21:30] while still being operational, uh, to hold the new, the new loads that are gonna, gonna come in shortly after the billing reopens.

[00:21:37] **Sujay:** There is a, rather larges, spliting [00:21:40] around the mechanical system and the, the structure of the mechanical system itself is sort of like kicks back into. The inside portion. So you can't really, you know, we were looking at how do you bring [00:21:50] some equipment up on the roof, even using a helicopter or something to drop.

[00:21:53] **Sujay:** It was not an option because of the, the, the springing structure there, you know, there in, in, in the way. So we had to sort of like, figure out [00:22:00] carrying some of the equipment through the sta up. And, you know, the challenge is, is, you have these narrow corners and so the units would have to be, broken down into [00:22:10] sections big enough or small enough to carry, and yet large enough that you can go around the corner and not, break down into million smaller parts.

[00:22:17] **Sujay:** And yeah, it's, it's a, project. The [00:22:20] contractors, uh, do play a tremendous role in a success of project. They do amazing things and, you know, build things that sometimes seems impossible to build. Credit also [00:22:30] certainly have to go to some of these aid of the, the trade partners there.

[00:22:33] **Sujay:** They're willing to execute our vision and plans.

[00:22:35] **Robert:** It's been so clear to me since I started in architecture decades ago and even [00:22:40] now, hearing these stories that to create magical spaces, it takes a really, really large team and a lot of experts and professionals. It is unachievable without [00:22:50] everyone playing their role, and contributing and collaborating together, to execute on that project.

[00:22:55] **Robert:** I, I'm so curious, like between the three of you, like, were there anything that were like. [00:23:00] Unexpected from working together that helped you collaborate better? Maybe something that completely got you off guard, maybe something you might not do again. I'm curious,

[00:23:09] **Michael Hsu:** what [00:23:10] do you guys think?

[00:23:10] **Eric:** I would say there's one for every project. It's, uh, how big, how little do, do you want it to be at? You know, we, we worked on a project together called [00:23:20] Uptown Sports Bar. It, a longstanding, you know, watering another watering hole over on the east side of Austin that, you know, was a abandoned, sat empty, [00:23:30] but still kinda had a visual presence in the neighborhood and they wanted to come in and, and Michael's team did a great job of.

[00:23:38] **Eric:** [00:23:40] Revamping, maintaining its historical look while, modernizing it into a restaurant that, that holds weight today. And, we came in and it's, you [00:23:50] know, the equipment you use to air condition a commercial kitchen today is not the same as, uh, it was back when it's much larger.

[00:23:57] **Eric:** It has a lot more pieces and [00:24:00] components and, nowhere near as challenging as headliners, but it was cramming 10 pounds of equipment into a found five pound bag, hiding it on a, a [00:24:10] tall one story building so that you don't see monstrosities on the roof. And then being able to, to distribute through the space while giving, you know, it, it has a very [00:24:20] open concept inside.

[00:24:21] **Eric:** And that. There was a, a lot of pieces to this puzzle and vision that, you know, one by one we just had to check off or come to terms with what is [00:24:30] feasible from a constructability standpoint.

[00:24:32] **Michael Hsu:** That's a good example. And it's, I think it's not unlike where the hospitality industry is. Like we do restaurants now with, three, four [00:24:40] different hood types. So you'll have like the main cooking hood. You'll have a, you know, a fuel burning hood. You'll have another hood for a different type of cooking equipment.

[00:24:48] **Michael Hsu:** And then a, a dish hood [00:24:50] for humidity and heat and how to make all that sort of like, look, okay, go away, not produce noise and sound. That doesn't make people feel good. While still sort of like showing people, [00:25:00] uh, how, you know, how the, how the food is being prepared and made and the sort of, um, performance aspect of that in restaurants.

[00:25:07] **Michael Hsu:** And that job, uptown Sports Bar was, was, [00:25:10] uh, an interesting, because it was a historic building. A lot of people were paying attention to it and we had to make sure it all stayed intact. So the new MEP systems almost had to look a little [00:25:20] vintage when they were exposed, like the air registers. But then the rest of it had to just be highly functional and, and not seen, yeah, like there's a wood burning part up front and then the regular stuff [00:25:30] in back.

[00:25:30] **Eric:** Totally. That, that, it's a trend in, in the hospitality restaurant design these days is to have, the visually open and connected kitchen to [00:25:40] the dining space and that. Offers a architecturally designed challenge and a very large MEP challenge as to keep both spaces comfortable [00:25:50] balanced yet, coexisting is tough.

[00:25:53] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. That, that balance has gotten to be more, more challenging with the, the increase in, air temperature, just our [00:26:00] weather here is, is, you know, it's definitely changing and how to keep comfort and functionality. You know, when you have hoods that are sucking up thousands of CFM at any [00:26:10] moment and, uh, make indoor comfort, sort of like still seamless for people.

[00:26:15] **Chris:** So architects and MEP engineers, they don't come from the same [00:26:20] world, uh, like architects, interior designers, and landscape architects. They're a little bit closer to architects than the engineers are, but at the end of the [00:26:30] day, buildings bring all these folks together. So as you've had to get to know each other and how you think and how you work, what are some misunderstandings you've discovered [00:26:40] that folks tend to have, architects tend to have about MEP engineers and vice versa?

[00:26:44] **Chris:** Y'all

[00:26:44] **Eric:** should definitely go first on this one. You hit the nail on the head. It's all trust, [00:26:50] collaboration and communication. You know, we, as an engineer, you walk into the room and you tend. To have a targeted profile on you before you open your mouth and what you bring to the table, [00:27:00] regardless of how old or experienced you may be.

[00:27:03] **Eric:** Or, you know, if you work for a monster firm that everybody's heard of or one that might just be locally known [00:27:10] by the people we've collaborated with. You, you need to come in with a, with an open mindset and, and problem solving as the number one objective.

[00:27:17] **Sujay:** Yeah. And then I always kind of joke that [00:27:20] engineers can only think in the straight lines and start corners and, you know.

[00:27:23] **Sujay:** And, and ours are they always sort of like you have a bending and the waves and everything else. So, you know, they [00:27:30] essentially, uh, yeah, sometimes we don't necessarily see beauty in the same things. We love our mechanical equipment, electrical equipment. They're all aesthetically pleasing to us, but not necessarily the case with the [00:27:40] architectural eyes.

[00:27:40] **Sujay:** So, you know, and so some of the things, uh, you know, uh, I think, uh, sometimes challenge would be the, the. Utilitarian feature versus the arch architectural feature. You [00:27:50] know, sometimes how you blend these things and uh, sometimes, you know, there's always desire to hide. For example, uh, a supply diffuser, you wanna hide it inside a cove and not have it be [00:28:00] exposed, whereas functionally, it may not provide the same, uh, level of, the performance.

[00:28:04] **Sujay:** So how do you blend these, these two things, you know, collaborate, these two things, things outside the box. And these are, [00:28:10] these are some, some of the things, uh, you know, we challenge each other if you will. You know, sometimes we say, Hey, you have to be the black Sheik in the family and say, no, it can't be done.

[00:28:18] **Sujay:** But then most of the time, [00:28:20] so like, we're like, okay, we'll figure it out, but how about this? How about that? And so you, um, and that, that iterative process certainly would get us to a point where, you know, we sort of like act, uh, contribute [00:28:30] towards the, the, the overall grandeur vision of the architectural, you know, world.

[00:28:34] **Michael Hsu:** I think for us, especially the younger people in the firm, yeah, we do have those [00:28:40] sort of stereotypes. Like, oh, the engineers want me to do this. I don't want to do it. It's ugly. I don't want giant registers. Or, or like, do we really have to have emergency lights in this project? [00:28:50] Or annunciators or like flasher, you know, all the stuff that we have to have, like we, we dislike those things.

[00:28:55] **Michael Hsu:** But we, we know, you know, once you get a little experience, you know, that hey, you [00:29:00] just gotta try and work with your best team and then try to put in the best place that you can. You know, the classical sort of issue is like, how do you put an exit sign into a [00:29:10] minimalist sort of museum, right? It's like every museum I go to is like, where are the exit signs?

[00:29:14] **Michael Hsu:** You know, I'm looking for the things that I know the architects probably like rung their hands about for, you know, weeks on end. Robert's [00:29:20] laughing 'cause he, he gets it.

[00:29:21] **Robert:** You have no idea. That is, every time I'm at a museum I do look for the exit signs. I'm just cute. Yeah. Fascinated. I know you have to do it.

[00:29:28] **Robert:** How did you do [00:29:30] it? 'Cause I, I know there was a design philosophy that the, the team is trying to execute. And these are really hard problems that took many different stakeholders, the MEP and the architect [00:29:40] and the interiors and the structures, uh, to come together to resolve. And I've seen some done very elegantly and I've seen some not done so elegantly.

[00:29:48] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah.

[00:29:48] **Robert:** Oh yeah.

[00:29:49] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. You can tell [00:29:50] when the team was lined up when, oh, it's like, okay, you did. There's a solution there. Yeah. All the way down to the, Hey, does the exit sign, is it gonna be red light or green light? You know, we, we [00:30:00] have every project on our checklist, like it's just a green exit sign project or red exit sign project.

[00:30:05] **Michael Hsu:** You can tell that's one of the things you can walk in and be like, okay, the maps were on board with the architect or [00:30:10] whatever. And then other times you walk in, you're like, oh man, I can't believe they put that sign there.

[00:30:13] **Sujay:** Yeah, that's an interesting thing. I didn't know that was a, you know, red exit sign and a, you know, green exit sign.

[00:30:18] **Sujay:** Sort of like a true [00:30:20] design process. What's, what's I, I'm curious about that now. Personally, I always like green, but that's just me.

[00:30:24] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. Green's harder in a dim restaurant space where we're going for a very warm color [00:30:30] temperature. So red always works out better in that situation. A place that's very day lit, bright, more professional and functional green, is awesome and works [00:30:40] well.

[00:30:40] **Michael Hsu:** It's a little bit more crisp. So we usually think about it as like hospitality versus everything else.

[00:30:45] **Robert:** It's fascinating 'cause I, I imagine we, we had a small, short conversation around [00:30:50] cars earlier, but I always assimilate red as like, don't go, stay away and, and green come to me. And though, you know, when you need an exit, uh, you kind of want to go, [00:31:00] but in most cases, 99.9% of the time, you, you really hope you don't have to use the emergency exits on.

[00:31:06] **Robert:** Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So, so much trust has been built over [00:31:10] the decade plus. I'm curious if, if you three can share maybe, like how do you, how do you build that trust? How do you maintain that trust? Um, ' cause it is, it isn't [00:31:20] easy to start building the trust and it, it's equally as just as hard to maintain that trust over long periods of time.

[00:31:26] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah, I, I can tell you we really value candid conversation [00:31:30] and feedback loops that, growth is a continual process and it's never, you know, we have to invest in the people we work with. Just like I have to invest in my own staff. It's a time commitment. So [00:31:40] you're just trying to choose the best people that you feel like is a worthwhile investment in your time and effort.

[00:31:44] **Michael Hsu:** So that's how we go about the sort of criteria of selecting we wanna work with because we know projects are never gonna be [00:31:50] perfect. It's more about working with people who get. What it is that we're shooting for. They see the things we could do better next time, and then they're there with us to sort of like, uh, you know, take the learnings [00:32:00] into the next job.

[00:32:01] **Sujay:** And almost, uh, I feel like, you know, each, each firm speaks their own language and every consultant and everybody has their own language of, [00:32:10] doing things. And it's almost feels like you have to learn the respective, uh, language so that, you know, if Michael is saying something which sort of like inherent to understand what he [00:32:20] means, what the design philosophy is, what the expectation is, uh, you know, how to execute this project.

[00:32:25] **Sujay:** So the more you, you collaborate each with each other. The more, the [00:32:30] ease or the comfort of understanding that language. And that sort of goes a long ways. He, he doesn't, you know, the, the, the design does not necessarily have to be completely spelled out. And yet the, the, you know, [00:32:40] a few elements will sort of like tell you, okay, this is what, it's the, the vision is, so let's just work towards that.

[00:32:45] **Sujay:** And it's different for every firm. You know, you know, there's every, every firm has a [00:32:50] slightly different design approach and, you know, and understanding. And on our consulting side, being able to learn and quickly, uh, find that formula to, to understand that helps [00:33:00] cultivating this relationship. And, you know, it's, as long as you sort of like understand each other, I think that's the way to go forward and, you know, and, and, you know, so that, uh, there's, minimizing the [00:33:10] miscommunication if you will.

[00:33:10] **Robert:** Maybe I'll be, I'll try to be more pointed. I'm curious, how often do you three, grab dinner or, participate in some of Austin's watering holes together? As a way to, not,

[00:33:19] **Sujay:** [00:33:20] not enough I should say.

[00:33:21] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. I, I don't think, yeah, I don't get out that much anyway, quite honest. 'cause I have children too. But we see each other more professional functions, organizations, um, [00:33:30] industry things, real estate things.

[00:33:32] **Robert:** That's incredible

[00:33:32] **Michael Hsu:** here.

[00:33:33] **Sujay:** Yeah. And then I saw Michael, I guess a couple of years ago, and I was looking forward to seeing him again this year. He, you know, he did the MS one 50 [00:33:40] and he was training for it, and I was training for it in the same group. So we saw each other a few times in different outfit, but you know, it.

[00:33:46] **Eric:** I hope what you're, where you are going was to encourage [00:33:50] everyone to, to celebrate the community and the wins. It's something we, we tell our, younger team members, like this is a, a family, all your clients consultants, like we're, we're [00:34:00] all together on a, a common path to, to providing a good experience and try to encourage them to get together.

[00:34:06] **Eric:** And I feel like as the hierarchy [00:34:10] grows and different people get more busy with life and kids, it happens less and less where almost it's more important to, to get together and enjoy each other and what, what's been built, you know, the collective [00:34:20] effort not to lose sight of that.

[00:34:21] **Robert:** You're absolutely right.

[00:34:22] **Robert:** I, I was trying to see if we can steer towards a conversation where, yes, there are a lot of tools out there. Yes. Everyone's remote, [00:34:30] everyone's toolbox from MAP engineers who an architect have grown over the last couple decades. But there's still essential tools that we shouldn't forget, like getting together, uh, resolving things in [00:34:40] person, especially with it become extraordinarily difficult.

[00:34:42] **Robert:** Don't forget that we do have access to phones. Use it. Not everything needs to be communicated via email or Slack or [00:34:50] Teams. And that our toolbox is quite wide and we're, we're fairly well equipped as an industry and will continue to be even more equipped as new tools come out. But you're right, Eric, I was trying to [00:35:00] steer towards like, remember that the toolkit's quite wide and it's not, not everything transactional and on Zoom and on Slack and Teams.

[00:35:07] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah. I think even at a project level, I, I [00:35:10] so appreciate it when, team members will take the time and actually come to the office and meet with us. I don't need it all the time, but it is good to have that, so [00:35:20] it, it's like still working at a table together, much like breaking bread together.

[00:35:24] **Michael Hsu:** There, there is a ritual of that that I, I still enjoy

[00:35:27] **Robert:** it on this, on this topic. I'm curious if you can [00:35:30] think of what, do, what's one way you used to work that you wouldn't go back to, and that, that doesn't exist anymore? I can tell you, like, I started, I'm not gonna give everyone my age, but I did [00:35:40] start in drafting, carrying a T-square to, to school with a mainline.

[00:35:43] **Robert:** I think there's a lot of value in using your hands, but I, I don't think the industry is going back to that. And I'm curious if there's something [00:35:50] that you can think of too, that you used to do that you were probably not gonna go back to

[00:35:53] **Sujay:** say, you know, over the. The last guess 10 years or in like more than that over a decade.

[00:35:58] **Sujay:** Our tools certain [00:36:00] depend, changed the way we do things. For example, we used to redline things, and then back, and then we come back and check and we have this, pencils to mark things that not [00:36:10] almost nobody does that anymore. And so you add, you've, you know, you've moved away from that, system if you will, to a system where you are drawing in a real time [00:36:20] using a Revit or some sort of like, you know, 3D software.

[00:36:22] **Sujay:** So the engineers, the designers, everybody has to understand almost all the elements of the building. So when they're doing it, they do it, the right [00:36:30] way. So yes, I, I think we'll go back and, you know, red line it. Um, but the, the. The expectation of each and every engineer now is like different. Like they need to [00:36:40] understand a few more things, you know, to, integrate into that, uh, design element.

[00:36:43] **Michael Hsu:** Um, let's see. I was gonna say the, the way like complete architecture teams are formed feels very [00:36:50] different. When I first started in the professional a long time ago, it was still very much compartmentalized architect, interior designer, lighting designer or even [00:37:00] multiple architects. We're on quite a few jobs to where, you know, we're one of three architects or interior designers on the job, like at a, at a hotel project because on large scale [00:37:10] projects there, there is an increased desire to have a wider variety of experiences and voices on them.

[00:37:16] **Michael Hsu:** And it can be incredibly challenging for a client. To [00:37:20] say that out loud and go and hire for it, because it adds a lot of complexity to their life. But I think, the firms that we work with, even the large ones, like s we're working with SOM right now on the new, um, Austin [00:37:30] Airport. They collaborate in an incredible way.

[00:37:32] **Michael Hsu:** They, we, you know, we have just real conversations like, hey, these are our strengths and these are our gaps. And, um, [00:37:40] where are we best on this project? And where should we like, stay outta your way. And on an airport it's pretty much 95% stay out of their way because I did not understand the complexity of an [00:37:50] airport, until very recently.

[00:37:51] **Michael Hsu:** Um, so I think that's different. I think another interesting thing that's a change is, you know, we, we definitely don't sketch as much. We don't communicate with our, our hands as [00:38:00] much. You know, we, we feel like we have to model it, which is its own, has its own limitations and it produces its own products.

[00:38:06] **Michael Hsu:** So we, we are, we actually try to encourage, we [00:38:10] actually have a sketching club and we do sketch exercises to try and make sure that that sort of, eye, mind and hand connection in design continues to [00:38:20] exist, past a mouse or a, a touch pad. Um, sometimes that means we will model a project roughly and then we'll sketch over it.

[00:38:27] **Michael Hsu:** And it's, it's been interesting [00:38:30] because many times those sketches which are more powerful than like a life, you know, real life rendering that came from a rendering farm someplace else. Because [00:38:40] those things don't, aren't as interesting as they used to be. It used to be, wow, look at that rendering.

[00:38:44] **Michael Hsu:** It's incredible. Now it's like, you can go on, you can go on Chad GBT and they'll give you whatever you [00:38:50] want. But you, what you can't get is a hand drawn sketch of your house, of your project. Um, that's different.

[00:38:56] **Chris:** We have some questions coming in. So first question is, uh, may I join your [00:39:00] sketching club?

[00:39:00] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah.

[00:39:00] **Chris:** Yes. From Adam Gates. Have you developed formal checklists for typical issues or questions, or do you jump in fresh every time in work from memory?

[00:39:09] **Eric:** [00:39:10] This one alludes to what? The thought process. I was going through my head when you were saying, what is a tool we should no longer, you know, grab out of the bag and use again. And my, my first thought was [00:39:20] the concept of let's do it like we did it last time. Ev everything in the design industry is changing.

[00:39:26] **Eric:** Temperatures are changing, you know, and results are changing. You [00:39:30] really always need to approach a project with a blank canvas. You know, you, you use the same design methodology and thought process, but not the [00:39:40] actual tools that you grabbed from before. And I feel like that's something that over time you got to untrain yourself to go back to that and really a [00:39:50] approach it fresh each time.

[00:39:51] **Michael Hsu:** I'm curious for you guys, are you using AI in any capacity

[00:39:55] **Eric:** yet?

[00:39:55] **Eric:** I've used it some for, quick picture, try to [00:40:00] describe something and see how they would throw it out there. We use it mainly for trying to take the same description and sound it more descrip, you know, recreate it to sound sexy for another office building. Describing an [00:40:10] office building different from the last office building is, uh, harder than you might think.

[00:40:13] **Michael Hsu:** Yeah, just a ongoing curiosity of like, trying to take the temperature of where this all is at any given time.

[00:40:19] **Robert:** [00:40:20] Michael, do you use AI in any capacity today? We, we

[00:40:22] **Michael Hsu:** do. We, we, we will have it help us with writing. A

[00:40:26] **Robert:** little

[00:40:27] **Michael Hsu:** bit. That's an easy one. And then we don't [00:40:30] have it designed buildings per se, but we'll, we will use Mid Journey in Korea and some other tools to help iterate on projects that we're working on.

[00:40:39] **Michael Hsu:** So [00:40:40] really as a design tool. And then we will also use it to render or add entourage or mood or feel to a project. So we'll take a rendering, [00:40:50] we'll be like, show it to me, in a nighttime scene just to see if like, Hey, is this worth pursuing? Like in a large bird's eye site plan, we'll use it to like populate the [00:41:00] tiny people in the trees instead of someone coming in there and like doing it in, in Revit.

[00:41:04] **Michael Hsu:** So yeah, it's not quite replaced. The shed. I'm sure I will soon be replaced in some [00:41:10] capacity. But it is helping speed up and give us some, giving us some flexibility and optionality and have us iterate quicker, which is what my goal is like. I just [00:41:20] wanna look at more options, as quickly as we can.

[00:41:22] **Robert:** Chris, are there any other questions from, from the audience?

[00:41:25] **Chris:** Let's see here. So, um, there's a question about how to manage information exchange [00:41:30] and the proper timing of inputs. Given that you have a realtime model, you have access to the kind of current state of the project, how, how do you think about not going all [00:41:40] in immediately once you have, especially from the engineering side?

[00:41:43] **Chris:** Do you have a way, is it kind of just understood at what. Degree of definition you're working at. Is that [00:41:50] communicated outside of the model? I think there's some curiosity about how to still orchestrate while also being collaborative.

[00:41:57] **Eric:** A very good [00:42:00] question and is really, in my opinion, a case by case. You, ideally we love our, working with Michael and his team and, and other clients that we've worked with [00:42:10] over the years and have a pretty good understanding of what the level of expectation is.

[00:42:14] **Eric:** That certain milestones, depending on workload, there's days where we're eager to get in and draw it all [00:42:20] up. But if we're not communicating with their design team and understanding which areas may still be in flux, they're still bouncing around. Design layout options. It's [00:42:30] hard to know, like, when can we run full speed and knock it out?

[00:42:34] **Eric:** Or where we need to, be a little more cautious and show intent, but not show the level of [00:42:40] detail that we want, as our firm to represent ourselves, the, the end product too early and show our cards. The same comes with, the level of detail, your design, you know, what [00:42:50] size, conduit and pipes and, and different components you show can represent the level of quality of what our product is.

[00:42:56] **Eric:** But there's a fine line between showing too much and you're telling a [00:43:00] contractor exactly how to do everything. Maybe they had a cheaper route. You need to be, choose some of those battles wisely. No,

[00:43:07] **Sujay:** I think it's, this is one of the, one of [00:43:10] the things where we may. Still be, um, you know, using the, the sort of format of the perspective, what e each milestones mean, the St milestone, the [00:43:20] concept milestone, the st the dd and design some of those things, uh, you know, you don't wanna, you know, wanna, or two ahead of the, the, the entire design team.

[00:43:27] **Sujay:** So we sort of like have, have our own, points where we would [00:43:30] like to stay maybe, uh, you know, a step behind of the architecture, for example. And so I think we use that, the traditional, you know, milestone, expectation, uh, still I think to [00:43:40] some, some degree.

[00:43:41] **Chris:** Architects and engineers working together, finding common ground, especially in a changing world.

[00:43:46] **Chris:** Michael Sujay, and Eric and Robert, thank you very much again, thanks [00:43:50] everyone. Thanks everyone.

[00:43:51] **Eric:** Thank you.

[00:43:51] **Chris:** Bye all.

[00:43:52] **Michael:** The main takeaway from Michael, Eric, and Sujay is that successful collaboration requires learning each other's design language - [00:44:00] understanding not just what someone is asking for, but the philosophy and expectations behind it.

[00:44:05] **Michael:** Start with one actionable step. Bring your MEP engineer into your next [00:44:10] project's conceptualization phase. not after you've already designed the layout. If this episode helped you think differently about architect-engineer partnerships, share it with your team!. [00:44:20] Thanks for listening.